Wednesday, March 26, 2008

New BoJ bought reward comparisons

As I promised before, with the new patch out, I'm going to detail the new BoJ rewards and compare them to the previous ones of the same slot.

First up is the easiest one, IMO: Feet.

New Badge item:
Blue's Greaves of the Righteous Guardian: Plate Feet, 1212 Armor, 58 STA, 34 Shield Block Rating, 23 Spell Hit Rating, 26 Spell Damage, Red Socket, 3 STA Socket Bonus

This is compared to the previous choice of:
Sabatons of the Righteous Defender: Plate Feet, 1105 Armor, 45 STA, 18 Defense Rating, 18 Spell Hit Rating, 30 Shield Block Value, 23 Spell Damage, Red/Blue Sockets, 4 STA Socket Bonus

Opinion: The new Blue's Greaves are almost a total upgrade compared to the Sabatons. They have more armor, base stamina, a socket that can be socketed either for +9 or +12 STA (assuming you only use blue quality gems), more spell hit rating, and a ton of crush avoidance (though only through Shield Block Rating). One of the reasons I hadn't upgraded from my Boots of Elusion to the Sabatons is due to how much crush avoidance I'd lose. But with how much Shield Block Rating the Greaves have (over 4% at 70) this makes this a non-issue and actually gives me more crush avoidance so I can shed some of my other gear elsewhere. Maybe get some more Expertise Rating. The only situation where the Sabatons are better than the Greaves is when you are treading water on Defense Rating and picking up the Greaves would drop you under 490.

Next up is Waist:

New Badge item:
Girdle of the Fearless: Plate Waist, 904 Armor, 58 STA, 34 Defense Rating, 23 Hit Rating, 22 Expertise Rating, Red Socket, 3 STA Socket Bonus

This is compared to the two previous options of:

Girdle of the Protector:
Plate Waist, 904 Armor, 40 STA, 11 Defense Rating, 27 Dodge Rating, 18 Spell Hit Rating, 23 Spell Damage Yellow/Blue Sockets, 4 STA Socket Bonus


Iron-Tusk Girdle: Plate Waist, 904 Armor, 45 STA, 21 Defense Rating, 33 Dodge Rating, Yellow/Blue Sockets, 3 Dodge Rating Socket Bonus

Opinion: This one is a no-brainer. While overall you lose out on avoidance, the Girdle of the Fearless has Expertise. Expertise is (IMO) the best of the non-necessary stats. Even with how much I rant and rave about Spell Hit, I would drop every point of Spell Hit I have for more Expertise. Plus the Girdle of the Fearless has some benefits beyond just Expertise. It has more Stamina, even after gemming up, and the regular Hit Rating will allow for less Avenger's Shield and Righteous Defense misses.

As for the Leg slot, we have two options at our disposal:
Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor: Plate Legs, 1406 Armor, 78 STA, 25 Defense Rating, 43 Dodge Rating, 37 Spell Damage, Red/Yellow Sockets, 4 STA Socket Bonus

Sunguard Legplates:
Plate Legs, 1406 Armor, 78 STA, 43 Defense Rating, 35 Dodge Rating, 23 Expertise Rating, Red/Blue Sockets, 3 Dodge Rating Socket Bonus

Compared to the old:
Unwavering Legguards: Plate Legs, 1406 Armor, 73 STA, 22 Defense Rating, 30 Shield Block Rating, 59 Shield Block Value, Red/Yellow/Blue Socket, 6 STA Socket Bonus

Opinion: While the Unwavering Leggauards have more crush avoidance than any other single piece of armor, if you've already reached crush avoidance they lose some of their luster (but still have value since you can use their high crush avoidance to replace other slots). But when compared to the Sunguard Legplates, they just pale in comparison, due to the high STA, good avoidance and of course Expertise. In fact, I would say that the Sunguard Legplates are currently the second best tanking legs in the game (including compared to T6). The only ones that top them are the ridiculous awesomeness that are the Felstrength Legplates (drop from Brutalis in Sunwell Plateau).

Finally is the hardest part to decide on... the Chest slot:

Shattrath Protectorate Breastplate: Plate Chest, 1765 Armor, 78 STA, 26 Defense Rating, 34 Spell Hit Rating, 60 Spell Damage, Blue Socket, 2 Dodge Rating Socket Bonus

Chestplate of Stoicism:
Plate Chest, 1765 Armor, 78 STA, 51 Defense Rating, 34 Dodge Rating, 39 Shield Block Value, Red Socket, 3 STA Socket Bonus

These are compared to the:

Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian: Plate Chest, 1607 Armor, 60 STA, 22 Defense Rating, 38 Dodge Rating, 35 Spell Damage, Red/Yellow/Blue Sockets, 6 STA Socket bonus

Opinion: This one is a lot more complex than it looks. With only a quick glance it looks like the Shattrath Protectorate Breastplate is much better (it does have a very nice amount of Spell Damage and Spell Hit Rating). It's quite easy to overlook the benefits of the Chestplate of Stoicism. Look at the numbers on the Chestplate: 51 Defense Rating and 34 Dodge Rating. Combined that's over 4.3% straight avoidance. There are few pieces that beat that much avoidance.

So which is better? Honestly, I'd say the Chestplate is since that much avoidance will allow us to aim for other gear more easily. But that doesn't mean that the Shattrath Protectorate Breastplate is worthless. It's tied with the Heroic Judicator's Chestguard (a drop from Sunwell Plateau) for the most spell damage on a single piece of Plate armor. After you pick up all the other pieces, getting the Shattrath Protectorate Breastplate would be a good move for a 5-man/heroic or threat building set.

Though on one final note for the chest pieces, the Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian is a happy balance between the two. If you find yourself needing more spell damage, but don't want to give up a lot of avoidance to get it (like you would with the Shattrath Protectorate Breastplate), the Chestguard is a viable option.

Also all the additional avoidance and Defense Rating that these pieces will give will allow easier access to other slots, such as the Broach of Deftness, and the Shapeshifter's Signet, both of which are nice and tasty sources of Expertise but are sorely lacking in the "normal" tanking stats.

Anyway, enjoy the list.


Honors Code said...

Kaz, please don't this personally. I really enjoy your stuff, but I disagree strongly with your analysis especially of the Boots.

First off is the boots. They are NOT an upgrade over Righteous Defender.

100 armor, 13 stamina, 5 spell hit, 34 shield block RATING, 3 spell damage in exchange for -1 less gem slot, -18 Defense, -30 Block Value.

A blue gem in the 2nd gem slot on Righteous Defender totally negates the difference in stamina.

So what are you left with.

Trading Block Value for useless Block Rating, and losing defense for a tiny bit of spell hit.

This is not an upgrade.

Girdle of the Fearless is a situational belt for those times when a missed taunt is critical. I'd rather have the dodge and spell damage on most boss fights and I'd rather have the block value from Belt of the Guardian on trash and AoE situations.

Certainly not a No-Brainer.

I prefer the Aldor legs over the Sunguard, and both are certainly clear upgrades over Unwavering which will go in my Block Value set.

Aldor legs are itemized almost perfectly. Spell damage, Dodge, defense and stamina.

For the Chest's, Shattrah is nice. The Spell Hit really boggles my mind. We only have a couple of skills that rely on spell hit, and those aren't even what I'd consider critical ones. Avengers Shield and Taunt both go off melee hit.

Compared to the Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian,

18 stamina, 4 defense, 25 spell damage

-2 sockets, -38 dodge

The sockets easily equalize out the stamina and defense gains making it a trade of spell damage for dodge.

Honors Code said...

This was my analysis.

Anonymous said...

One fly in the ointment is that your stats for the 2.3 boots are wrong - they have 2 sockets, which you don't list (neither here on in the really old 2.3 analysis).

I'm looking at getting the ring and some pants from 2.4. I'll probably stick with my 2.3 chest, and might get the 2.3 boots one of these days, though for now my Jungle Stompers are serving me very well.


Kaziel said...

Honor, I will never take a difference of opinion personally. We each see the same information, but our views of that information are shaped by our own personal experiences.

For a long time I placed a huge emphasis on spell damage. More threat is better right?

Well yes and no. It depends on how well geared your guild is. After a certain point your DPSers will hit a ceiling of how much TPS they can put out. When that happens, you don't need more threat.

This is the situation I find myself in. Even my guild's shadow priest, who generates more threat than anyone else other than me due to damaging and healing at the same time, can't match me for steady threat generation. I could get more spell damage, but... why? It's not like I do a lot of damage. I average 200-300 DPS, and even 60 more spell damage wouldn't amount to more than 15 DPS total from all my spells. So instead I focus on other stats which will either keep keep me alive like more STA, Armor or Expertise.

Now, when (because it's not an if) you reach a point where people are genuinely getting close to overtaking you on threat generation then more spell damage is needed, but not in the amounts given out here. Due to the high threat modifier applied to holy damage, and the low threat generated by DPS's damage it doesn't take much spell damage to match their increase in TPS.

Also, my views were that of main-tanking raid bosses. This advice falls apart when it's applied to other situations such as tanking large groups for fights like Morogrim Tidewalker.

For individual points:

Boots: Well first off I'm advocating the boots just due to their high amount of crush avoidance. With that much Block Rating you can get rid of points or gear elsewhere. When I'm suggesting this, the primary purpose is for those who are low on crush avoidance (i.e. people only in approximately Kara gear or worse) and want to get certain items that are low on avoidance but high on other stats. When I'm saying this I'm mostly thinking about getting more Expertise. Pieces like the Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx, the Brooch of Deftness/Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve, or the Band of Determination. Those pieces are filled to brim with yummy Expertise, but are sorely lacking in true avoidance stats. The high amount of Block Rating (thus high amount of crush avoidance) allows us to pick up this and use it to fill out other spots. Also, this much crush avoidance allows us to (with other pieces) actually consider replacing the Libram of Repentance or maybe getting rid of some of those 5 points in Deflection.

Also to clarify, for someone like you who is in a guild pushing their way through TK and SSC, this is not nearly as much of an issue. You have access to much more avoidance, so the idea of dropping some to get some Expertise gear is something much more easily accomplished. For someone like me who hasn't seen past Karazhan (or for someone not even at Kara) this much Crush Avoidance of any type on a single piece of gear is quite nice.

As for the Girdle of the Fearless, I disagree that it's situational, due to it having a healthy amount of Expertise. It's my opinion that as long as you can reach 490 Defense, 102.4% crush avoidance, 14k health unbuffed and 250+ spell damage, the next major stat to aim for is as much Expertise as you can (to counter the effects of the dreaded Parry-gib). Thus it is my opinion that the Girdle is better than any previous belts available. And the same goes for the Sunguard Leggings over the Aldor legs.

Now I think, looking at this, we have different opinions on Expertise, which is the core source of the problem. I aim for gear that will allow me max Expertise while still reaching Uncrushable (hence the boots).

It seems to me that you emphasize spell damage more than me, which is fine. Everyone has their own styles. I can give you my reasons, but I can't say that you're wrong for choosing your choices.

Kaziel said...

@Fedaykin: Thanks for noting my mistake. I went and fixed them.

Honors Code said...

Okay, I understand better now where you are coming from on the boots. I haven't had to even think about being uncrushable in months.

I look at the situations I find myself. Add pick up on Al'ar. Massive AoE adds on Solarian and Morogrim. Add pick on Lurker. Threat battle with other tanks on Void.

In all those situations, I need threat, but I need it FAST. That's why I dig spell damage.

On Solarian, my mages can't wait for Consecrate to tick to unload. We've got to down those adds and get on the priests asap.

And in the AoE situations on Tidewarker and Solarian, I want as much block value as possible.

I have yet to be convinced that 1 expertise ~= 1 spell damage. It may very well be the case, but I don't understand well yet (maybe a future blog post for you as I really enjoy your writing style).

The last point is that I'm competing with the other tanks (Warriors) in my guild for tanking spots. One of the chief measures our Raid Leader looks at is not Hit Point or Armor or Dodge. It's TPS.

I may not NEED another 100 TPS to hold off the DPS, but I need to be able to put out as much or more than the Warrior alternative.

Honors Code said...

From by Dorvan


In summary, taken solely in terms of threat, most Tankadins should prioritize threat stats in the following order:

spell damage > expertise rating >>>>> spell hit rating > hit rating

Anonymous said...

I don't dig on the idea of trading Parry (pure avoidance) for Block Rating.

For anyone in Kara gear needing Block Rating for more uncrushability, I'd suggest trying to get some Jungle Stompers off the first boss in ZA. Also, T4 shoulders or ZA 1st timer shoulders have loads of Block Rating on them.

There is also a shield enchantment which yields 15 Block Rating. I would also now (2.4) enchant my cloak with Defense rather than Dodge and my chest with Defense rather than HP. If that doesn't do the trick, there's a great new 12 Defense/10% Block Value meta-gem out there. Finally, the old Defense to Bracer enchant is very efficient, pointwise; in fact, it's more efficient than the STA enchant that is more common.

Even if you don't need more TPS yet (I only *need* it when I run with some T5/T6 guild folks), I think that badges are such a limited commodity that it's best to gear with an eye towards the future. In the future, you'll most likely be gearing for more pure avoidance and not valuing Block Rating as highly. Hence, if you really want BR, enchant for it, 'cause it's easier to re-enchant than to get another 60-75 badges to buy the piece with greater longevity to replace what you got the first item.

My 2 cents =D


Honors Code said...

I wouldn't call Badges a limited commodity anymore. You get one practically for logging in. Every boss drops between 1 and 3 badges, you can even get one from the new dailies (if you are lucky).

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry about asking this but after reading the posts I got somewhat lost. Since I need the extra TPS (spell dmg right?), which pieces of gear should i get?


Kaziel said...

The last point is that I'm competing with the other tanks (Warriors) in my guild for tanking spots. One of the chief measures our Raid Leader looks at is not Hit Point or Armor or Dodge. It's TPS.

I may not NEED another 100 TPS to hold off the DPS, but I need to be able to put out as much or more than the Warrior alternative.

I feel this is a quick, easy, and very very flawed way to judge the value of a tank.

But being that this is how your guild does it, your personal emphasis on TPS makes a lot of sense. Thing to remember is that not all guilds run that way.

Also, as far as expertise compared to spell damage goes, I'm going to dedicate a separate post to that.

I don't dig on the idea of trading Parry (pure avoidance) for Block Rating.

I agree. Parry is, IMO, the best type of avoidance (will also dedicate a post to this). I was just giving an example of how you shed other stats for the additional block rating that the boots give. But that's just my opinion, and I know some won't agree with my views (which is fine).

My only final thought on Block Rating is that getting rid of all of it, and relying exclusively on pure avoidance will cause our threat generation via Holy Shield blocks to go down, not to mention the amount of damage we receive over the course of a battle to also fall (meaning less heals, thus less mana). This has been a problem for me for tanking some of the lower bosses in Kara because I've gotten enough dodge so that I take too little damage.

Kaziel said...

@Kaiendono: For the largest boost to your TPS from your single piece, the
Shattrath Protectorate Breastplate will be your best choice, but if you're tanking raid bosses always be wary of your avoidance falling too low.

Pretty much any piece with Spell Damage on it will increase your TPS a good bit. That's your easiest and fastest way to bump up your threat generation.

Anonymous said...

Oh ok thanks. With the new gear,using the Warcrafter Sandbox, I have about 74% avoid without holy shield, 512 defense skill, and 324 spellpower. Is that avoid enough?


Kaziel said...

You have more than enough. If you have the Libram of Repentance you only need 67.07% If you don't have the Libram, you need 72.4%

Anonymous said...

Ok. I'll pick that up if i find myself losing avoid later on. Right now I'm using the Libram of Eternal Rest to increase the damage of my consecration a little bit.